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Thread: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

  1. #441
    Senior Member Warbler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Warbler went on to say:

    "If anyone committed a whataboutism here, it would be Kazoolaw. I first alluded to Trump's claims that the 2020 election was stolen/rigged and all he did to try to get the results overturns (sic). Then Kazoolaw instead of addressing that, wwnt (sic) "what about a former Presidential candidate who still insists she was robbed.", trying to take the attention off Trump."

    Let me repeat, this Topic is titled "Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?" The first sentence of the first post says:
    The last two Presidential elections had the losing candidate accuse the other of cheating to win. Russians got Trump elected, Democrats cheated through mail-in fraud or electronic conspiracies... whatever."

    I understand the question posed as asking for agreement that both political parties distrust the system of elections. I agree with that position, and offered evidence to support that position. Trying to take attention off Trump? No, demonstrating again that both sides claim the other side cheated.

    Warbler concluded:

    "Once I fully understand what wrong doing Kazoolaw is accusing this "former Presidential candidate" of, I will be willing to address it."

    It would have been better that you understood before posting. If you understood what I actually wrote you would see that I made no accusation, nor did I say "wrong doing." I told you what Hillary Rodham Clinton, losing "former Democratic candidate" for President, said. [Why you used quotation marks I don't know. Did you doubt that each of those 3 words are accurate]?

    Apparently you did no independent research, or perhaps you assumed I was making a baseless assertion. Now you have HRC herself on the record in the Washington Post, no friend of Democrats.


    I think you must have been posted this while I was busy writing post 436 of this thread. I somehow overlooked this post. I apologize. I see your point. I realize now that this whole line of discussion is probably off topic for this thread. I apologize for that. I also take back my claim that you committed a whataboutism. I now see that you did not do that.

    [Why you used quotation marks I don't know. Did you doubt that each of those 3 words are accurate]?
    I was simply quoting you. In post 425 of this thread you referred to a former Presidential candidate whom was apparently female because you used the word she. You did not refer to Hillary Clinton by name in that post.

    Apparently you did no independent research, or perhaps you assumed I was making a baseless assertion
    I made no such assumption. I simply wanted to hear more from you and better understand what you were talking about in regards to HRC. But you are correct in that I did no independent research.
    Last edited by Warbler; March 18th, 2024 at 01:05 AM.

  2. #442
    Senior Member Warbler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    [SIZE=4
    Warbler said:

    "I am still trying to fully understand what Kazoolaw is saying about this "Presidential candidate who still insists she was robbed." I can only assume Kazoolaw was referring to Hilary Clinton. I would like to exactly what Kazoolaw is accusing her of doing or saying in regards to the election where she insists she was robbed. *** Hilary Clinton insists she was robbed? Her complaint probably had to do with the fact the While she won the popular vote, Trump won the electoral college. Did she say the election was rigged? "

    Warbler, did you not know? I give you HRC herself from the Washington Post:

    "Hillary Clinton dismissed President Trump as an “illegitimate president” and suggested that “he knows” that he stole the 2016 presidential election in a CBS News interview to be aired Sunday.... “I believe he understands that the many varying tactics they used, from voter suppression and voter purging to hacking to the false stories — he knows that — there were just a bunch of different reasons why the election turned out like it did.”" {no electoral college mentioned} https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...40f_story.html

    Same article, different Dem: "In June, former president Jimmy Carter used similar language to diminish Trump’s presidency. Carter said that in his view Trump lost the 2016 election and was put in office by the Russians. Asked if he considered Trump to be illegitimate, Carter said, “Based on what I just said, which I can’t retract.”" Again, no mention of the electoral college.

    Speaking of the electoral college, if HRC did go off on the electoral college that is a direct attack on the Constitution, undermining faith in the constitutional republic.


    [/SIZE]
    1. The article you linked to is behind a paywall.
    2. I will agree neither H. Clinton nor Trump should be making claims about a stolen election without solid proof, and I mean solid proof that enough fraud happened to effect the outcome of the electoral college.
    3. I don’t think Hillary made anywhere near as big a stink about the 2016 election as Trump did about the 2020 election. I don’t remember a riot/insurrection interrupting the confirmation of the 2016 election, do you? What I do remember is that on the morning after election day in 2016, Hillary conceded the race. Trump, to my knowledge, never did that in 2020.
    4. If she “went off on the electoral college” it was probably the usual complaint that people have that maybe the popular vote should decide the winner, not the electoral college. If that undermines the Constitution, so be it. But and anyone else is entitled to have an opinion on whether we should get rid of the electoral college and go with the popular vote(something Trump has never one by the way). (Personally, imho, I would not get rid of the electoral college, but I would alter it. Perhaps I will go into more detail someday.)
    1. https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=hilla...lection+robbed
    Scroll down to WaPo entry- I got it free.
    2. You know, I know, and every reader knows this is irrelevant to the Topic of this Thread.
    3. I’ve quoted the Topic twice. I quoted the OP’s first sentence. Do you really not understand the issue? You must, as you haven’t claimed not to understand Post 435.
    4. “If she went off….” You said that’s what she probably went off on. You mean you really don’t know?
    -“If that undermines the Constitution, so be it?.
    “A republic if you can keep it.” Read a bit of American history and perhaps you’ll not be so cavalier.
    1. I failed to see any WaPo entru in the google search to linked to. But I believe you that HRC did claim the 2016 election was stolen in a 2019 interview.
    2. After reading post 435, I am forced to agree irrelevant to the thread topic.
    3. I had overlooked posted 435. I you posted it while I was busy writing post 436. Sorry. After having read it, you are probably right this whole discussion is off topic.
    4. You are correct that I didn’t know exactly what her complaints were in regards to the election. That is why I wanted to hear more from you. I should have been more clear that I speculating on what she was complaining about when I said she was probably going off on the electoral college system. As for my “so be it” comment, please allow me to reword what I wrote: If, in your opinion, the usual complaints about the electoral college undermine the Constitution, so be it. I personally do not believe that thinking and saying that the electoral college should be done away with and replaced with the popular vote, undermines the Constitution. People are allowed to think what they want of the electoral college. And yes I know about the “a republic if you can keep it” comment . Ben Franklin said that.

  3. #443
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Hillary Clinton: "Rightwing extremists literally have a plan to steal the next Presidential election".

    https://twitter.com/IndivisibleTeam/...wOHxmlJ_Z1pX-w
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to dneal For This Useful Post:

    kazoolaw (March 19th, 2024)

  5. #444
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Warbler, about Post 442:
    Understood and thanks.
    I’ll never be OK with “undermining” but if anyone wants to advocate for a change I’m up for a debate.

  6. #445
    Senior Member Warbler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    like I said before, I don't necessarily argue to completely do away with the electoral college, just alter it. Perhaps I will explain sometime.

  7. #446
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Janice Johnston, member of Georgia State Election Board: "Does Fulton County know why there are 380,761 ballot images missing?"

    Fulton County representative: "Umm, this is the first time we're hearing about it... so, uh... we would have to... uh... we would have to... We can't answer that question at this time."

    -edit-

    Video of today's meeting:

    Last edited by dneal; May 7th, 2024 at 05:07 PM.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  8. #447
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Georgia Election Board voted to reprimand Fulton County and appoint a monitor for the 2024 election.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  9. #448
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    But the election was not overturned.

  10. #449
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    But the election was not overturned.
    Reading the title of the thread, and keeping that context in mind, might prove helpful.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  11. #450
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    "More than one-in-four voters say they’d be willing to engage in illegal voting activity if it would help their preferred candidate win the 2024 presidential election."
    An April 2024 poll by the Rasmussen Reports polling company found almost identical numbers for Kennedy-Biden-Trump supporters.
    "... if voter turnout remains similar to 2020 – nearly 45 million ballots may be fraudulently cast if they are not prevented..."
    https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...win_28_say_yes

    "The new poll follows up on a Rasmussen Reports/Heartland Institute survey in December that found more than 20% of voters who used mail-in ballots in 2020 admit they participated in at least one form of election fraud." (emphasis added) https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub..._2020_election

    The 2020 polling numbers, and the 2024 projected numbers, are solid bases for supporting improved election security measures.





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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Democratic primary voided because of ballot box stuffing.
    Dems cheating against Dems?

    https://apnews.com/article/connectic...968ffdaa0b6369


  13. #452
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Democrats don't just use superdelegates to rig primaries, it seems.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  14. #453
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Also from the 28 Jun 2023 Rasmussen Poll:

    The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 66% of Likely U.S. Voters are concerned that the outcome of the 2024 presidential election will be affected by cheating, including 40% who are Very Concerned. Thirty-two percent (32%) aren’t concerned about cheating in next year’s election, including 15% who are Not At All Concerned.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  15. #454
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Rasmussen, May 16, 2024: Election Integrity: Voters Support Absentee Ballot Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasmussen Reports
    Two measures aimed at protecting the integrity of elections have majority support from American voters.

    The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 63% of Likely U.S. Voters would support a law that requires all absentee ballots to include the signature of a witness, including 39% who Strongly Support such a law. Twenty-eight percent (28%) are opposed, including 15% who Strongly Oppose requiring witness signatures on absentee ballots. Last week a federal judge dismissed a lawsuit brought by Democrats that challenged Wisconsin’s witness requirements for absentee voting.
    But what about that federal lawsuit brought by Democrats?

    ABC News, from AP, May 10, 2024: Federal judge tosses Democrats' lawsuit challenging Wisconsin absentee voting requirements

    MADISON, Wis. -- A federal judge has thrown out a lawsuit brought by Democrats that challenged Wisconsin’s witness requirements for absentee voting, a ruling that keeps the law in place with the presidential election six months away.

    The rules for voting in Wisconsin are of heightened interest given its place as one of a handful of battleground presidential states. Four of the past six presidential elections in Wisconsin have been decided by less than a percentage point, including the past two.

    U.S. District Court Judge James Peterson tossed the lawsuit Thursday, saying the fact that the law has stood unchallenged in one form or another since the 1960s was “telling.”

    “It may be debatable whether the witness requirement is needed, but it is one reasonable way for the state to try to deter abuses such as fraud and undue influence in a setting where election officials cannot monitor the preparation of a ballot," Peterson wrote.

    National Democratic law firm Elias Law Group, representing four Wisconsin voters, had argued that the state is violating the federal Voting Rights Act and Civil Rights Act by demanding a witness signature on ballot envelopes.

    The voters argued that they have a hard time securing a witness signature because of health risk, age and frequent travel overseas.

    State law requires clerks to reject absentee ballots that are missing a witness’ address or signature. A Wisconsin judge ruled in 2022 that elections officials cannot correct or fill in missing information on witness certifications, a practice known as ballot curing.

    The Voting Rights Act prohibits states from requiring a voter to “prove his qualifications by the voucher of registered voters or members of any other class.”

    The judge said the voters had not shown that either the Voting Rights Act of 1965 or the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits a state from requiring absentee voters to prepare their ballot in front of a witness.

    “Neither side cites any evidence regarding the effectiveness of the witness requirement in preventing abuses or the number of citizens who cannot vote because of the requirement,” Peterson said. “But regardless of how effective or burdensome the requirement is, the federal laws at issue in this case simply do not apply to it.”

    Attorneys for the voters who brought the lawsuit did not return messages seeking comment Friday. A spokesperson for the Wisconsin Elections Commission, the defendant in this case, also did not return a message.

    Nine states require witness signatures to verify absentee ballots and three states require an absentee ballot envelope to be notarized, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures.

    In Wisconsin, witnesses for most voters must be U.S. citizens and at least 18 years old. Witnesses for overseas and military voters are not required to be U.S. citizens.

    In a random review of nearly 15,000 absentee ballots cast in the 2020 presidential election in Wisconsin, the nonpartisan Legislative Audit Bureau found that nearly 7% of the witness certificates were missing at least one component of the witness’ address.

    The ruling comes ahead of the Wisconsin Supreme Court hearing oral arguments Monday in another case related to absentee ballots. In that one, Democrats are trying to overturn a 2022 court ruling that prohibited the placement of absentee ballot drop boxes anywhere other than inside election clerks' offices.

    In January, a Dane County judge sided with Democrats in ruling that election clerks can accept absentee ballots that contain minor errors such as missing portions of witness addresses. That ruling has been appealed.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  16. #455
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    But the election was not overturned.
    How ‘bout these?
    https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread...l=1#post417706

  17. #456
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Members here are not evidence.

  18. #457
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Members here are not evidence.
    Some reason you ignored the fact that the link takes you to a Rasmussen poll?

    Probably collapsing narratives.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  19. #458
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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Members here are not evidence.
    Pretending not to notice the link takes you to Post 476, with 3 reported elections being overturned?

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